MEETING
OF THE
PLENARY SESSION MINUTES
February 3, 2009
AS APPROVED APRIL 7, 2009
The meeting of the Florida Building Commission
was called to order by Chairman Raul L.
Rodriguez
at 9:04 a.m., Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at the Crowne Plaza Melbourne
Oceanfront Hotel,
COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
Raul L. Rodriguez, AIA, Chairman
Richard
Browdy, Vice-Chairman
Jeffrey
Gross
Angel
Franco
Jeff
Stone
James
Goodloe
James
R. Schock
Herminio
Gonzalez
Robert
G. Boyer
Hamid
Bahadori
Drew
W. Smith
Chris
Schulte
Mark
Turner
Randall
J. Vann
Scott
Mollan
Jon
Hamrick
William
Norkunas
Anthony
M. Grippa
Kenneth
L. Gregory
Joseph
“Ed” Carson
Raphael R. Palacios
Paul D. Kidwell
Tim
Tolbert
Dale
Greiner
Matt
Carlton
Craig
Parrino, Adjunct Member
COMMISSIONERS ABSENT:
Doug
Murdock, Adjunct Member
OTHERS PRESENT:
Jim
Richmond, DCA Legal Advisor
Jeff
Blair, FCRC Consensus Solutions
Mo
Madani, Technical Svcs. Manager
WELCOME
Chairman
Rodriguez welcomed the Commission, staff and the public to
REVIEW AND APPROVE AGENDA
Mr.
Blair conducted a review of the meeting agenda as presented in each
Commissioner’s files.
Commissioner
Browdy moved approval of the meeting agenda as amended to reflect that rule
repeal hearings would be held on February 4, 2009, consistent with Florida Administrative
Weekly noticing. Commissioner Kidwell entered
a second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
REVIEW AND APPROVE DECEMBER 9 & 10,
2008 MEETING MINUTES AND FACILITATOR’S SUMMARY REPORT
Chairman Rodriguez called for approval of the minutes and
the facilitator’s reports from the October Commission meeting.
Commissioner Schock stated in the December minutes his
name had been incorrectly spelled and his middle initial was an “R”.
Commissioner Greiner moved approval of the minutes as
amended and the Facilitator’s Report as approved from the December Commission meeting.
Commissioner Schulte entered a second to
the motion. Vote to approve the motion
was unanimous. Motion carried.
CHAIR’S DISCUSSION ISSUES
AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Chairman Rodriguez first announced the following appointments
to the TACs and workgroups:
Energy TAC
Larry Maxwell was appointed to the Energy TAC.
Education POC
Ken Gregory was appointed to the Education POC.
Roofing TAC
Lorraine Alisio Ross was appointed to replace Buck
Buchanan on the Roofing TAC.
2010
Rusty Carrol was appointed to the Energy Code Workgroup
representing Broward BORA.
2010
Jon
Hamrick was appointed to the Accessibility Code Workgroup to represent Florida
Department of Education. Diana Ibarra was also appointed to the Accessibility
Code Workgroup to represent
Green and Energy Efficient Roofs Workgroup
Chairman Rodriguez stated
at the December 2008 meeting the Commission agreed to convene a Green Roofs
Workgroup to evaluate issues regarding green and energy efficient roofs in the
Code. He then stated to date the following the appointments to the workgroup
had been made: Chris Schulte, Craig Parrino, and Lorraine Alisio Ross.
Window Wall Workgroup
Jim Westphal and Jim Stropoli were appointed to the Window Wall
Workgroup.
CO Detector
Workgroup
Richard Roberts was appointed to the CO Detector Workgroup representing
the CO Detectors Manufacturers’ Association.
Chairman
Rodriguez then addressed the rule development initiatives. He stated there had been a Rule Development
Workshop on the Cost Effectiveness Test.
He then stated since the Commission
completed adoption of the 2007 Florida Building Code and adoption of Glitch
Amendments to the 2007 Code, the Commission could focus on the development of
the 2010 Code Update process. He stated Section 109, HB 7153 directs the
Commission to develop a rule for determining cost effectiveness of energy
conservation measures to be considered
for inclusion in the Florida Building Code. He then
stated the rule must be completed and applied to the update of the energy
provisions of the 2010 Florida Building Code. He further stated the Commission
would be working with stakeholders via the Energy Code Workgroup to develop
cost effectiveness test criteria to be applied to justification for increased
residential building energy efficiency requirements, and will conclude rule
making in time for the adopted rule to be effective for inclusion in the 2010
Code Update. Chairman Rodriguez concluded by stating in order to complete this
Legislative assignment as required the Commission needed to initiate rulemaking
during the current plenary session.
Commissioner Browdy moved approval of initiating rule making to develop a rule for determining
cost effectiveness of energy conservation measures to be considered for
inclusion in the Florida Energy Code, by conducting a rule development workshop
at the April 2009 Commission meeting. Commissioner
Greiner entered a second to the motion.
Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
Chairman Rodriguez reminded the Commission of the Rule
Adoption Hearings on Rule 9B-72.090 (self-affirmation) and Rule 9B-72.180
(equivalency of standards). He requested
the commissioners plan to participate in the Product Approval rule adoption
hearings which would be conducted via telephone conferences on February 17,
2009, at 10:00 a.m. (Telephone number 888-808-6959,
code 9221867).
Chairman
Rodriguez then addressed the Annual Effectiveness Survey. He stated each year the Commission conducts
an Effectiveness Assessment Survey to gauge the Commission’s perspective on a
variety of issues. He further stated over
the years the survey input has been the basis for many enhancements to the
Commission’s procedures. He then
directed the Commission to Mr. Blair for an overview of the survey.
Mr. Blair explained the
process and requested that the Commissioners complete the on-line survey. He
stated the results would be discussed at the April 2009 meeting. He then stated
he would email Commissioners the survey link on Thursday, and requested that
members take the few minutes required to complete the survey by Friday,
February 27, 2009.
Chairman
Rodriguez next addressed amending evaluation entities in law. He stated in response to the assignment
regarding the recommendation to the 2009 Legislature on how evaluation entities
should be recognized in law, at the December 2008 meeting the Commission voted
to recommend eliminating entities no longer in existence, to include the
International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials Evaluation
Service in the Law, and to alphabetize the list of approved evaluation
entities. He then stated the text the
Commission approved in the Report to the 2009 Legislature did not strike the
now defunct “National Evaluation Service” from the list. He continued by
stating in order to be consistent with the Commission intent, the text should
be amended as follows:
The Commission
recommends amending the list of evaluation entities in law as follows: (1) Include IAPMO Evaluation Service (ES) in the law
as an approved evaluation entity. (2) Recommend changing the law to read as
follows (update list to eliminate entities no longer in existence, add IAPMO
ES, and alphabetize the list of approved evaluation entities): (a) Evaluation entities that
meet the criteria for approval adopted by the commission by rule. He then stated the Commission shall
specifically approve the National Evaluation Service, the International
Conference of Building Officials Evaluation Services, the International
Code Council Evaluation Services, the Building Officials and Code
Administrators International Evaluation Services, the Southern Building Code Congress
International Evaluation Services the International Association of
Plumbing and Mechanical Officials Evaluation Service, and the Miami-Dade
County Building Code Compliance Office Product Control. Architects and engineers licensed in this
state are also approved to conduct product evaluations as provided in
subsection (5). Commission recommends…”
Commissioner Greiner moved approval to amend action
previously taken. Commissioner Kidwell
entered a second to the motion. Vote to
approve the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Commissioner Greiner moved approval of the motion to amend
the report to the Legislature, December Facilitator Report, and the December
Minutes. Commissioner Kidwell entered a
second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Chairman
Rodriguez then stated a motion was needed to amend the Report to the 2009 Legislature
and the December 2008 Facilitator’s Report and Meeting Minutes to revise the
text regarding evaluation entities recognized in law to: eliminate entities no
longer in existence, to include the International Association of Plumbing and
Mechanical Officials Evaluation Service in the Law, and to alphabetize the list
of approved entities.
Commissioner Greiner moved approval of the motion as
stated. Commissioner Kidwell entered a
second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Chairman
Rodriguez then stated he had reviewed and approved the Report to the 2009
Legislature (as authorized by the Commission), and the report was now under
review by DCA prior to submittal to the Governor and Legislature as required. He stated the Final Report would be posted to
the Commission’s website and would be available for download once conveyed.
REVIEW AND UPDATE OF COMMISSION
WORKPLAN
Mr. Dixon conducted a review of the updated Commission
workplan. (See Updated Commission
Workplan February 2009).
Mr. Dixon stated he would address only changes or
additions to the workplan. He stated that
under the Hurricane Protection Standards task the contract with the
Mr. Dixon then stated the Department of Community Affairs
and FEMA requested the Commission reevaluate the policy regarding the inclusion
of NFIP flood standards in the Code versus leaving those outside the Code and
to local jurisdiction adoption. He
stated the project was being funded by those two entities and would begin in
March with meeting dates in March, April and May and with recommendations to
the Commission targeted for the June or August meeting. He further stated it was anticipated the
recommendations would be more of an administrative nature that go into statute
rather than actual technical requirements that are placed in the Code. FEMA is
satisfied with the standards in the International Building Code so there would
probably not be very much discussion or changes to those technical
standards.
Mr. Dixon stated that at the last Commission meeting the
window industry asked that the policy considering labeling of windows be
reviewed specifically as it would apply to storefronts and curtain walls of
commercial building systems. He stated the project would begin in April and
work would continue through the summer with proposals being submitted for the
2010 Code Development process by December of next year.
Mr. Dixon then stated the Legislature and Governor tasked
the Commission with a number of initiatives for updating the energy standards
for building construction in
Mr.
Dixon stated there were a couple of other tasks which fall under the Energy and
Climate Change heading. He stated some
were directives of statute and some were projects proposed by different
TACs. He then stated the Legislature
mandated the Commission evaluate technologies recognized in the Energy Code for
achieving the increased efficiency requirement targets that have been set. He further stated, the Legislature also
directed the Commission to evaluate and establish, together with standards
already established in law, requirements for pools and spas and a list of
technologies the Legislature stated had to be included in the code, including
cool roofs. He stated a workgroup was
appointed at the February 3rd Commission meeting to work with the
Energy workgroup to evaluate the green roof portion of the cool roof systems.
Mr.
Dixon stated another project that came out of consideration of a late proposed
amendment to the Energy Code during the glitch amendment process deals with looking
into how requirements for upgrading air conditioning systems when an air
conditioning unit is replaced.
Mr.
Dixon stated high humidity problems in the hot and humid climate are an ongoing
issue with competing effects on energy conservation and indoor air quality. The
amount of fresh air brought into a building effects energy use and air quality.
How the introduction of the fresh air is controlled is important to both. He
stated the project would be ongoing throughout all Energy Code considerations
as it moves forward.
Mr. Dixon stated a very large workgroup had been
assembled made up of state agencies that have some regulatory role in licensing
facilities that impact persons with disabilities, representatives of groups
that represent persons with disabilities, the Commission’s Accessibility Technical
Advisory Committee and the Accessibility Advisory Council to work on
development of the next edition of Florida’s Accessibility Code. He then stated the law directs the
Legislature, the Commission and agencies to take all steps necessary to maintain
the federal certification of
Mr. Dixon then stated another project the Commission
approved towards the close of the glitch amendment process was to form a
workgroup that would look into how existing pools might be upgraded or how they
are required to be upgraded through the codes to better address the entrapment
problems and to match with the new federal guidelines on entrapment
prevention.
Mr. Dixon reminded commissioners the approved updated
workplan was always included as an attachment to the Facilitator’s Summary
Report which is posted to the website one week after each Commission meeting.
Commissioner Greiner moved approval of the updated
workplan. Commissioner Carson entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
CONSIDER ACCESSIBILITY WAIVER
APPLICATIONS
Chairman
Rodriguez directed the Commission to Jack Humburg for consideration of the Accessibility
Waiver Applications.
Mr.
Humburg presented the waiver applications for consideration. Recommended approvals were presented in
consent agenda format with conditional approvals, deferrals and denials being
considered individually.
#1
Trademark Cinemas
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the council recommended approving the
design for the larger theaters and deferring action on the smaller ones to
permit the applicant to redesign the layout so no seats have sightlines greater
than 30 degrees.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the council’s recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell
entered a second to the motion. Vote to
approve the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Commissioner Browdy stated typically there was a
consent agenda with the particular items that had been approved without
conditions by the Council. He asked Mr. Humburg
if there were any approved without conditions and if so could he read those
first so the Commission could deal with the consent agenda first and then take
the other waiver applications individually.
Mr. Humburg stated all the waiver applications were
approved with a couple having conditions.
Chairman Rodriguez stated the question was if he
wanted to do the others without conditions with the consent agenda. He then stated since there was one waiver already
presented the Commission should take action on it before continuing to the
others.
Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
Recommendation for Approval with No
Conditions:
#2
Strike Industries
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the council recommended granting the
waiver as the applicant satisfied the condition that it would be
disproportionate to the cost of the alteration to install the lift.
#Magic
City Casino
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the council recommended granting the
waiver as it concluded it is unnecessary that all rows of seats be made
accessible.
Commissioner
Browdy moved approval of the council’s recommendation for approval of the
consent agenda for items 2 and 3. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Recommendation for Approval with
Conditions:
#
4
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the
council recommended granting the waiver.
All council members present had the implicit understanding that an
elevator would eventually be installed, but this was not clearly stated in the
motion. He offered a friendly amendment that the condition be an elevator would
be installed as part of the construction of the second floor.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the council’s recommendation. Commissioner Greiner entered
a second to the motion.
Commissioner
Norkunas thanked Mr. Humburg and his council.
He stated he felt it incumbent that he should make a couple of comments
to his fellow Commissioners since all of the Commissioners represent
stakeholder groups. He continued by
stating the stakeholder group he represents is 17% of
Commissioner
Norkunas added if any of his fellow Commissioners were to open the application
and look at ‘A’ they would see that what the applicant had done was build out
the first floor of a building and are doing nothing with the second floor and
in the application they wrote “declining market conditions dictate that it is
an inappropriate time to complete the second floor as a tenant is not
attainable so nothing is being done with the second floor.” He further stated
the supplicant wrote “the cost of an elevator is $40,000.00,” adding if nothing
was going on with the second floor and there was no tenant, the applicant
should not have come for a waiver. He continued
stating the consensus among individuals with disabilities in the state of
Vote
to approve the motion was unanimous.
Motion carried.
#5
Green Monkey Yoga Studio
Mr.
Humburg stated the application had been withdrawn by the applicant.
No
action necessary.
#6
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the
council recommended approving the waiver, provided all wheelchair
seating locations are not on the ends of the rows. They concluded it was unreasonable to require
access to all rows in the performance venue.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the council’s recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered
a second to the motion.
Commissioner
Browdy asked if there was a plan presented that showed accessible seating
dispersed throughout or was the condition only that accessible seats be on the
end rows.
Mr.
Humburg stated accessible seating was dispersed at three levels but for the
front row it was at the ends of the row. He stated the council recommended
approval with the condition those seats at the end of the row be moved in one
position.
Commissioner
Browdy asked if there were also companion seats at the end of the row.
Mr.
Humburg responded stating there were.
Vote
to approve the motion was unanimous.
Motion carried.
#
7
Mr.
Humburg explained the petitioner’s request for waiver as it was described in
each Commissioner’s files. He stated the
council recommended deferring action on the request to allow the
applicant to redesign the bleachers to integrate wheelchair seating to provide
two locations with companion seats in each of the three bleacher sections. He
then stated the applicant, as advised by council, had submitted a design just
prior to the plenary session which provided integrated seating for 6
wheelchairs and companion seats which were integrated into the bleacher
system. He stated the council
recommended approval of the resubmitted design.
Commissioner
Schock asked if the resubmitted design was approved by the entire council.
Mr.
Humburg responded stating it was not. He
then stated there had been a lengthy discussion with the applicant regarding
the seating positions and it was submitted to him and staff just before the
plenary session.
Mr.
Bunton asked if the council had given specific direction to exactly what was
needed.
Mr.
Humburg stated yes.
Vote
to approve the motion was unanimous.
Motion carried.
Mr.
Bunton asked Mr. Humburg if the waiver was being granted based on technical
infeasibility.
Mr.
Humburg stated that was correct.
CONSIDER APPLICATIONS FOR PRODUCT
AND ENTITY APPROVAL
Chairman Rodriguez directed the Commission to
Commissioner Carson for presentation of entity approvals.
Commissioner Carson stated there were no entities to be considered.
Mr. Blair added it was the first time ever that there
were no entity approvals.
Mr. Blair stated there was a consent agenda for all those issues that
were posted with the same result from all four compliance methods either for
approval, conditional approval or deferral. He stated these were the ones
without comment or there was no change to the recommendation as proposed
presented. He stated if no Commissioner
wished to pull any products for individual consideration he asked for a motion
to approve the consent agenda for all four compliance methods for approval,
conditional approval and deferral.
Commissioner Carson entered a motion to approve the
consent agenda as amended for all four compliance methods for approvals,
conditional approvals and deferrals.
Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Mr.
Blair presented the following products for consideration individually:
10849 Simpson Strong-Tie Co
Withdrawn
11449 Stanek Vinyl Windows
Withdrawn
11949 JELD-WEN
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with the condition
to amend the NAMI certification to indicate the manufacturer of the door slabs
and the corresponding Florida Product Approval Application Number for the door
slab; indicate on the limits of use the utilization of the Right Concept door
slabs on the assembly; new installation instructions to be provided.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11218 Mesker Door, Inc.
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with the
condition that the applicant revise evaluation reports to indicate that test
reports were made under the accreditation of IAS and signed and sealed by a
Florida P.E.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11542
Mesker Door, Inc.
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with the condition
that the applicant revise evaluation reports to indicate that test reports were
made under the accreditation of IAS and signed and sealed by a Florida P.E.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11622
Silverline Building Products Corp.
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with the condition
to revise glazing configuration for products .1, .3, .4 and .5 to provide
"safety glass". Revise
evaluation reports and installation drawings
for products .6 and .7 to indicate tempered glass on sacrificial lite. If not tested with "safety glass"
indicate "No" for HVHZ.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11915
Atlas Roofing Corporation
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for approval with the condition that after
obtaining a reissued test report, the applicant revise the evaluation report to
indicate that the test report is signed and sealed by a Florida PE that witness
the test and is listed on the laboratory accreditation as a witness
engineer. Otherwise, indicate
"No" for HVHZ.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11986
Eagle Window and Door, Inc
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with
condition that after obtaining a reissued test report, the applicant revise the
evaluation report to indicate that the test report is signed and sealed by a
Florida PE that witness the test and is listed on the laboratory accreditation
as a witness engineer. Otherwise,
indicate "No" for HVHZ.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
11494
Overhead Door Corporation
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval stating an
obsolete commentary remained on the agenda list. The application was complete and recommended
for approval.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
821-R1
United Steel Products Company
Mr.
Blair stated the product was recommended for conditional approval with the condition that the applicant substitute the evaluation
report with latest version of ICC-ES ESR-2753.
Delete the products on application for the HTT Series.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
CONSIDER APPLICATIONS FOR ACCREDITOR
AND COURSE APPROVAL
Accreditor
Approvals
Commissioner
Browdy stated there were no applications at present for accreditor approval.
Course
Approvals
Commissioner
Browdy stated there were two courses being submitted for consideration by the
Florida Building Commission that have been reviewed by the Education POC:
An Overview of the 2007
FBC Course # 337.0
|
|
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
An Overview of the 2007
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Commissioner
Browdy stated the following courses were approved on the Education POCs consent
agenda for administratively approved Updated Advanced Courses:
2007 Advanced Code: Building/Structural Summary, FBC
Course # 323.0
2007 Advanced Code: Building/Structural Summary
(internet), FBC Course # 324.0
2004 Advanced Building/Structural Summary, FBC Course
#168.2
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation for consent agenda of
administratively approved courses.
Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Advanced 23 Hour (SREF) Course, FBC Course # 309.1
Commissioner
Carson moved approval of the POC recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion.
Commissioner
Hamrick stated he needed to abstain from the vote on the course approval.
Vote to approve the motion was unanimous.
(Commissioner Hamrick abstained). Motion
carried.
CONSIDER LEGAL ISSUES AND PETITIONS
FOR DECLARATORY STATEMENT: BINDING INTERPRETATIONS: REPORTS ONLY
DECLARATORY STATEMENTS:
Legal Issues:
Binding Interpretations:
Declaratory Statements:
Second
Hearings:
DCA08-DEC289 by Glen
Lathers, Hillsborough County Public Schools
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files.
Commissioner
Tolbert moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Greiner entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC-331 by Brad Weatherholtz,
FRSA, Inc.
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files.
Commissioner
Greiner moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC- 337 by Roger Sanders, Nova
Engineering and Environmental, LLC
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each Commissioner’s
files.
Commissioner
Goodloe moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Franco entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
First Hearings:
DCA08-DEC-194 by Dan Arlington, St. Johns
County Building Department
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files.
Commissioner
Goodloe moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Franco entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC-207 by Anthony Apfelbeck,
Fire Marshall/Building Official, City of
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files. He stated the
petitioner had agreed to extend consideration as the petition pertains to
carbon monoxide protection and may be the subject of legislation. He then stated rather than sending out a
response to the question which could be misleading in light of potential
legislation, the petitioner would like to see the petition continued and
resolved at a later date, not dismissed at present.
Chairman
Rodriguez asked if the Commission needed to vote on a continuance.
Mr.
Richmond responded unless there was an objection it could just be rolled on the
agenda.
DCA08-DEC-339 by Jose Sanchez,
Fenestration Testing Laboratory, Inc.
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files. He stated the
committee recommended dismissal in absence of the requested additional
information.
Commissioner
Greiner moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Carlton entered a second to the
motion.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if it was usual for a testing laboratory to conduct, evaluate and
set up a separate company in which the CEO would be the same. He further stated he was unfamiliar with how
this type of testing facility would work.
He stated the petitioner quoted a Roy Burroughs in
Mr.
Madani stated this came up in light of a revision made to the Product Approval
Rule where it stated a test lab cannot validate applications for product
approval. He then stated this entity was
trying to create another subsidiary to do just that. He further stated question was raised whether
or not there were still financial connections.
He stated the committee wanted additional information to be able to make
a decision on the petition. He then
stated it appeared at present that the lab had decided not to pursue it.
Commissioner
Grippa entered a request for future entities that there would be no financial commonality
between a tester and an inspection. He
further stated in this case the petitioner stated in the email he would be CEO
of both but the books would be maintained separately. He stated it did not seem constructive with
the rule Mr. Madani referenced.
Mr.
Madani stated for the future that point was not reached because staff wanted
more information from the applicant to make a determination, then the applicant
decided not to continue. He then stated
until the situation comes up again it could not be determined whether there is
a conflict between financially connected entities.
Mr.
Richmond stated the issue of financial ties was most likely the reason the
petition was being dismissed because there is a point the Commission gets beyond
its jurisdiction and into the scope of corporate law, which is not within the
purview of the Commission. He then
stated staff was seeking to get the petitioner in this case to research the
issue so it could be determined whether it was something that was problematic
or not, then when the petitioner did not comply the question could not be
answered.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if in the past the Commission had approved a tester and a
validator that had common ownership.
Mr.
Richmond stated he was not sure.
Commissioner
Grippa stated he was not referring to this specific entity. He asked if the
Commission had ever approved both.
Mr.
Madani stated he was not sure.
Mr.
Richmond stated staff would have to research the issue. He explained the change that excluded test
labs from being validators was relatively new therefore there was probably not
a lot of motivation to have separate entities prior to 8 or 10 months ago. He then stated it can be looked at to the
extent data on particular ownership staff would be more inclined to look at the
professionals involved and their licensure.
He further stated there was direct conflict of interest on the
information obtained and there is a concern of who their principals are, but he
was not sure if staff would go to boards or shareholders on that level of
scrutiny.
Commissioner
Carson stated if Ted Berman was present, if anyone could answer Commissioner
Grippa’s question it would be him.
Chairman
Rodriguez called for a vote on the motion.
Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC-344 by Alvin Scolnik,
National Electrical Manufacturer’s Assoc.
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each Commissioner’s
files. He then stated the committee
recommended the case be deferred until it can be taken up by a joint meeting
consisting of the Mechanical, Electrical and Fire TACs. He stated if there were no objections he
would roll the item forward on the agenda with the request for that meeting to
occur at the end of the plenary session.
DCA08-DEC-345 by James Reed, Southwest
Progressive Enterprises, Inc.
Mr.
Richmond stated the committee had decided to defer petition to the next meeting
due to insufficient information.
DCA08-DEC-357 by Fred S. Cardwell, P.E.
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files.
Commissioner
Grippa stated it looked like they were also asking about a warranty. He asked if he were reading it correctly.
Mr.
Richmond stated he had not actually looked at that.
Commissioner
Grippa stated maybe it was better for the Commission not to get into what the
warranty might be.
Mr.
Richmond stated Commissioner Grippa’s comment had triggered his memory. He then
stated the references made to warranties as to whether inclusion of
underlayment might void the warranty of the roofing. He further stated it was kind of a subsidiary
question to question 1. He then stated
given the Commission’s answer to the question it was really no issue at
all. He stated he did recall some
testimony submitted at the committee stating there were really no warranty
issues involved here as the underlayment has no impact on the warranty. He explained that would be a private
contractual type of obligation the in which Commission would not want to get
involved.
Commissioner
Greiner stated he was a little confused with the answer to question 1 because
it does not seem like it was answering the question. He then asked if the TAC had indicated that
the engineer had to show the underlayment on the plans one way or the other and
the Code specifically states he does. He
requested clarification if that was the Commission’s intent.
Mr.
Richmond responded it was.
Commissioner
Greiner stated it sounded like when the question was asked he did not
understand what was stated in the Code.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated if it was required in the Code the applicant would be required
to show it.
Mr.
Richmond stated the Code states underlayment shall be required and you must
follow manufacturer’s installation instructions included and these instructions
included at least permissive use of their product without underlayment. He further stated he believed his principal
in designing a certain shed was pressed for him to save the money involved with
underlayment.
Commissioner
Greiner moved approval of the committee recommendation. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion.
Commissioner
Schulte stated the first question went through the Roofing TAC and the second
question went through the Fire TAC. He
asked if the 80 inch rule applied with this being a non-habitable space. He then stated he understood the plans
showed they were built drawn pursuant to the 2004 Building Code and at the same
time on the plans there were wall heights of 6 feet. He stated obviously it was tough to put an 80
inch doorway through a 6 foot high ledger.
He stated he was curious how that was discussed at the Fire TAC.
Commissioner
Goodloe stated the TAC had an extensive discussion on that issue. He then stated it basically came down to the
fact the lower height walls were not addressed in the Code so the TAC only
ruled on what the Code language stated if the Code called for an 80 inch door
that was the only ruling the TAC could give.
Commissioner
Schulte stated he assumed there was no exception for the non-habitable space.
Commissioner
Goodloe stated that was correct in terms of the height of the door. He stated the TAC narrowed the question down
to just the door itself.
Vote
to approve the motion was unanimous.
Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC-359 by Michael J. Wolfe
Advanced Shelter Solutions, Inc.
Mr.
Richmond explained the issues presented in the petition for declaratory
statement and the committee’s recommendations as they appeared in each
Commissioner’s files. He then stated the
committee determined the issue to be outside the scope of a normal declaratory
statement and recommended that it be dismissed.
He further stated the petitioner had asked the Commission to confirm or
ratify a decision it made some months back with regard to a particular
issue. Mr. Richmond continued by stating
a declaratory statement is not an appropriate means to confirm or ratify a
decision. He then stated he did not
believe the petitioner reflected the decision affected his personal decision
with the petition.
Commissioner
Kidwell moved approval of the committee recommendation to dismiss. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
Commissioner
Gross asked what governs the format for submitting declaratory statements. He stated in going through the declaratory
statements for the meeting, he noticed some declaratory statements were not
complete, some were letter format, and some formatted very well. He then stated a form or some kind of format
for submitting declaratory statements had not been previously considered. He then stated if a standard form were used
it might be easier to review and evaluate each petition.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating there was no designated format and the Commission
has no authority to restrict it to a particular format. He stated there were substantive limitations contained
in Chapter 120 of Florida Statute. He
then stated he was familiar with something the Fire Marshall’s office had
developed or that has been developed on their behalf and circulated. He further stated it was a kind of form that
could be utilized with the appropriate changes.
He stated he was not certain if the Commissioners had received any
comments from the Joint Administrative Procedures Committee but the agency had
run into some difficulties when they have actually been looking through the
Commission’s website to determine what authorities it actually had or did not
have. He stated for declaratory
statements the Commission has no authority to adopt a form.
Commissioner
Greiner asked what the result of the last declaratory statement DCA-DEC-359.
Mr.
Richmond responded it was dismissed.
Commissioner
Goodloe stated on the form the Fire Marshall uses it is clearly stated in their
rule that it is an optional form but if the form is completed it would speed up
the response because all of the information needed is requested on the
form. He stated it was beneficial but
not required and letters can still be submitted.
DCA08-BC-360
Mr.
Richmond stated there was one more case to discuss and although it was not a
declaratory statement the number is DCA08-BC-360. He then stated it was the final case number
issued by the agency in 2008 and involves a complaint filed by Power Steel
Corporation with regard to a product approval issued by the Commission to Cast
Crete Corporation. He further stated
both parties were represented at the meeting and the Commission was represented
at the committee level. He stated Fred
Dudley and Eric Adams would scope the issue, but he wanted first wanted to lay
the groundwork. He then stated if at any
point in going through the proceedings here and the discussion and it becomes
apparent to anyone they have a conflict of interests then recusal would be the
appropriate result or potentially withdrawal.
He further stated the Commission has a specific conflict of interest
rule not generally applicable to all bodies which actually requires recusal if
the proceedings impact their direct financial interest or the interest of any
relative as well. He then stated if
there had been exparté communication regarding this particular issue and it
really affects a Commissioner’s ability to consider this in a fair and
impartial manner he should consider withdrawal as the most appropriate means to
deal with it. He further stated the
change in rules was because in these circumstances the Commissioners were
sitting essentially as opposed to the circumstances when the Code or rule was
being written, sitting in more of a legislative role. He stated as such the Commissioners need to
provide fair and impartial forum for the decisions of cases such as this.
Commissioner
Greiner asked for clarification on what exactly the Commission was doing i.e.
what type of proceeding was being held, a declaratory statement, a binding
interpretation.
Mr.
Richmond stated a complaint had been filed by Power Steel and requests an
investigation of the manufacturing processes and practices of another company,
Cast Crete, with further action by the committee after the investigation. He then stated the Commission had adopted
rules which the parties would refer to during their presentations. He further stated the issue before the
Commission was to determine whether to proceed with an investigation or not.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated the case had been brought before the POC. He asked Commissioner
Carson if he would be reviewing the recommendation of the POC.
Commissioner
Carson stated he was going to recuse himself based on the advice of Mr.
Richmond.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated for the record the committee had denied the request for an
investigation because there was no valid concern provided. He then stated Commission Gonzalez and
Commissioner Carson abstained from voting and the vote was 3-0 in favor or
denying the request for further investigation.
Commissioner
Greiner asked Chairman Rodriguez to repeat the vote results.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated the vote had been 3-0 in favor of denying the investigation.
Commissioner
Greiner asked if that was a recommendation to the Commission.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated it was.
Mr. Dudley, Holland & Knight, representing Power
Steel Corporation
Mr.
Dudley stated in answer to Commissioner Greiner’s question Rule 9B-72-170
provides for investigation of product noncompliance. He then stated it may be the first time the
Commission had received a petition under the rule. He thanked the Commission for the opportunity
to try to explain the reasons for the petition and the reason an investigation
was requested. He continued by stating
he believed the Commission’s counsel would advise that the proceeding was not
an evidentiary hearing, not a case to hear testimony or be asked to adjudicate
as a jury or a judge might adjudicate.
He further stated the sole issue was to determine if the Commission
believed if there was substantial material evidence, which is what the rule
states, to have an investigation conducted.
He stated the rule requires that investigation, should the Commission
order it, be conducted by the Quality Assurance Entity, in the case Miami-Dade
Office of Building Code Compliance.
Mr.
Dudley then stated it was not about how nice Mr. Parrino was, how long the
company has been in business, or a record of successes or failures. He stated it was about a violation of the
Building Code the Commission has adopted and products approved with its vote,
which in part was based on incorrect drawings.
He then referred the Commission to paragraph 3 of the petition which was
in the Commissioners’ packets. He stated
paragraph 6, a, b and c were the alleged code violations being addressed. He then stated he would refer the Commission
to the exhibits and photographs which were attached.
Commissioner
Grippa asked where the packets were located.
Commissioner
Greiner stated the Commissioners seemed to have no packet. He asked if there was going to be something
they could see on the screens.
Mr.
Dudley stated, for the record, he had the certified testing lab reports which
were submitted to staff. He then stated
he had filed the petition on December 31st and assumed, maybe
incorrectly, it would be included in the Commissioners’ packets as the other
petitions did. He suggested asking
Commissioner Carson if it was part of the packet for the POC, because staff
might be able to capture that if it had been.
Commissioner
Carson stated it was part of the packet for the POC.
Mr.
Dudley asked if hard copies were being printed if the Commission would like to
defer the proceedings until copies were made.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated staff was trying to get the information on the screen.
Mr.
Dudley asked if there were a way members could access it on their laptops.
Chairman
Rodriguez responded there was not.
Mr.
Dudley stated Mr. Blair stated there was a way.
Chairman
Rodriguez clarified there was not a way at the moment.
Chairman
Rodriguez then stated if it was okay the Commission would defer the proceeding
until the technical staff had caught up.
Mr.
Dudley responded it was okay.
***Staff
was attempting to put information on the overhead projectors and/or in the
laptops for the Commission members to view.
It was not readily available and the discussion was tabled until the
information was viewable at a later point in the agenda.
CONSIDER COMMITTEE REPORTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS:
Electrical TAC
Commissioner
Carson presented the report of the Code Administration TAC. (See Code
Administration TAC Minutes February 2, 2009).
Commissioner
Browdy moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Fire TAC
Commissioner Goodloe presented the report of the Energy
TAC. (See Fire TAC Meeting Minutes January 27, 2009).
Commissioner
Browdy moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
Mechanical TAC
Mr. Blair presented the report of the Mechanical
TAC. (See Mechanical TAC Meeting Minutes February 2, 2009).
Commissioner Browdy moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Franco entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
Roofing TAC
Commissioner
Schulte presented the report of the Roofing TAC. (See Roofing
TAC Meeting Minutes January 27, 2009).
Commissioner Schulte moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Structural TAC
Commissioner
Kidwell presented the report of the Structural TAC. (See Structural
TAC Meeting Minutes February 2, 2009).
Commissioner Schulte moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Vann entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Education POC
Chairman
Browdy presented the report of the Education POC. (See Education
POC Meeting Minutes February 2, 2009).
Actions:
Commissioner
Browdy stated the committee recommended a rule development workshop to discuss
9B-70.002, the Education Process. He requested the Commission approve the
recommendation for the workshop to be conducted at the April Commission meeting
in
Commissioner
Carson moved approval to conduct a rule development workshop on 9B-70.002 at
the April Commission meeting.
Commissioner Boyer entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval to accept the report. Commissioner Kidwell entered a
second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Product Approval/Prototype
Buildings/Manufactured Buildings POC
Commissioner Carson presented the report of the Product
Approval/Prototype Buildings/Manufactured Buildings POC. (See Product
Approval/Prototype Buildings/Manufactured Buildings POC Meeting Minutes February
2, 2009.)
Actions:
Commissioner Carson stated the POC recommended the revocation
of the following products. He explained
the revocations were due mostly in part to the inability to contact the
manufacturers regarding their expired quality assurance entity. He explained he would present each
manufacturer and its products individually.
Uroll Shutters FL#s: 3941-R1; 6331; 9945; 9946; 9947
Commissioner Vann moved approval of the committee’s
recommendation for revocation of the products as stated. Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
TNT Roofing Manufacturer FL#s: 5486; 5497
Commissioner
Vann moved approval of the committee’s recommendation for revocation of the
products as stated. Commissioner Schulte
entered a second to the motion. Vote to
approve the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Atlantic
Windows and Doors, Inc. FL#s: 7140; 7617; 7618
Commissioner
Vann moved approval of the committee’s recommendation for revocation of the
products as stated. Commissioner Schulte
entered a second to the motion. Vote to
approve the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Commissioner Schulte moved approval to accept the report.
Commissioner Vann entered a second to the motion. Vote to approve the motion was unanimous. Motion carried.
2010
Chairman Rodriguez stated after
the December Commission meeting the Code Assembly Ad Hoc Committee met to
consider staff’s proposal for the 2010 Code assembly process. He then stated
the Ad Hoc, consisting of Commissioners, voted unanimously in favor of DCA
staff’s proposal to use the 2007 FBC Code document as the template for the 2010
Code assembly process. He further stated
the 2009 I Code changes to the 2006 I Code would be integrated into the 2007
FBC to create a starting draft of the 2010 FBC.
He continued by stating now that there was conceptual approval from the
Ad Hoc, Staff is discussing the proposed Code assembly process with ICC to
evaluate the technical and financial impacts before making a final recommendation
to the Commission for proceeding.
Commissioner
Carson moved approval to accept the report. Commissioner Franco entered a
second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
Accessibility Code/ADAAG 2.0 Workgroup
Mr.
Blair presented the report of the Accessibility Code/ADAAG 2.0 Workgroup. (See 2010
Accessibility Code/ADAAG 2.0 Workgroup Meeting Minutes February 2, 2009.)
Commissioner
Carson moved approval to accept the report. Commissioner Kidwell entered a
second to the motion. Vote to approve
the motion was unanimous. Motion
carried.
REPEAL OF RULE 9B-3.0477 ELECTRICAL BONDING OF POOL DECKS REPEAL
OF RULE 9B-3.0475 WIND MITIGATION RETROFITS
REPEAL OF
RULE 9B-3.0472 CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTORS
Chairman
Rodriguez stated although the rule hearings on the repeals of would be held on
February 4 at 8:30a.m. Anyone who wished to comment on those repeals should
offer their comments.
Commissioner
Gregory asked, for the record, if the bonding issue had been put into the 2008
Electrical Code.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating all three of the rules being repealed were rolled
into the 2007 Electrical Code. He stated
they were essentially almost temporarily placeholders and since the 2007 Code
will take effect March 1 there was no further need to have separate rules.
Commissioner
Gregory stated there had been some concern from the industry this would not be
the case.
No
public comment.
CONSIDERATION OF ADOPTING 2008
NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE
Chairman Rodriguez stated
at the October 2008 Rule Development Workshop conducted for the purpose of
considering amendments to Rule 9B-3.047 Glitch Amendments, the Commission
considered whether to adopt the 2008 National Electrical Code as a Glitch Amendment.
He then stated the criteria provided in Chapter 553.73(7) F.S for considering
Glitch Amendments specifies the Commission may consider updates to the NEC if
delay of implementing the updated edition causes undue hardship to
stakeholders, or otherwise threatens the public health, safety and welfare. He
further stated the Commission considered testimony on both sides and voted to
defer action on deciding whether to consider adoption of the 2008 NEC as a Glitch
Amendment in the 2008 Glitch Process, and to set a schedule for a separate
rulemaking to implement the Commission’s actions relative to adopting the 2008
NEC, by July 1, 2009. He stated the NEC was reviewed by the Electrical TAC, and
the TAC provided recommendations regarding adopting the 2008 NEC into the
Florida Building Code and proceeding with rule making. He concluded by stating
the TAC recommended that the Commission adopt the 2008 NEC in whole and conduct
a rule development workshop at the April 2009 Commission meeting.
Commissioner
Carson stated public comment was heard and several were debated and this was
the decision of the TAC. He then stated
the second and final discussion of the TAC in review of the 2008 NEC was
conducted and it was recommended by the TAC the Commission adopt the 2008 NEC
without exception. He further stated the
TAC also recommended moving forward with the Commission’s workplan for a rule
workshop in April.
Commissioner
Gregory stated public comment was taken and he was part of the public
comment. He then stated the pool
industry had concerns about the NEC 2008 Electrical Code with the inclusion or
requirement of a GFI on circulating pumps He further stated in
Chairman
Rodriguez stated there would be further opportunities to speak on the
issue. He stated at present a motion was
needed to proceed with rule development to adopt the 2008 NEC and the interior
designer issue into the FBC by conducting a rule development workshop at the
April 2009 Commission meeting.
Commissioner
Greiner moved approval of the motion as stated.
Commissioner Schulte entered a second to the motion.
Mr.
Madani stated as staff he would not normally ask to make comments but in this
situation an issue came up regarding a roofing nail and there may be a typo in
the mitigation rule. He stated staff
would requested this be addressed during the glitch code process.
Mr.
Richmond stated this would probably be the appropriate means to consider
it. He then stated a notice could be
crafted to include that issue.
Commissioner Tolbert moved
approval of the motion to proceed with rule development to adopt the 2008 NEC,
the interior decorators settlement agreement, and correction of the roofing
nail size error in the FBC, by conducting a rule development workshop at the
April 2009 Commission meeting. Commissioner Kidwell entered a second to the
motion. Vote to approve the motion was
unanimous. Motion carried.
DCA08-DEC-360 (CONTINUED)
**Staff
had information ready for the Commissioners’ review and discussion continued on
the item.
Commissioner
Gonzalez stated he would recuse himself from voting.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated both Commissioner Carson and Commissioner Gonzalez would also recuse
themselves from the vote.
Mr.
Dudley stated on page 3, paragraph 6, he had set forth a, b, and c which are
summaries of the three alleged code violations being brought to the Commission’s
attention, described as follows:
a) Required minimum concrete coverage of the steel
reinforcing bar that is in the product.
He referred the Commission to section 1907.7.3, the adopted ACI standard
318, and 1926.5, which is a comparable section for the HVHZ or hurricane zone
requirements.
b) Welding standards, the Commission had adopted the AWS
standard D1.4 section 1922.4.4 which restricts the manor and method of welding
certain types of steel by a qualified welder
c)
Section 1922.4.5
for the HVHZ product and 1903.5.4 for the non HVHZ. He stated both of those sections require any
welding of reinforcing steel must be indicated on the drawings with specificity
as to the welding procedure to be used.
He then stated none of the drawings submitted for this product approval
reflect or describe any information at all regarding welding, in fact they do
not even show that welding was taking place with this product.
Mr.
Dudley stated more important than what he was presenting to the Commission as
an attorney was the letter attached to the petition (Exhibit A), which is a
summary report from Certified Testing Lab, which is a Commission certified
testing laboratory. He then stated the test results (Exhibit B) show
destructive testing of nine specimens of product FL158. He confirmed Exhibit A was the summary letter
from Certified Testing Laboratory dated December 23, 2008. He stated the second paragraph sums up what
was found in the actual test result report, attached to the petition as B. He read from the second paragraph,
“The results
obtained in Procedure A indicate that specimens 4, 5, and 6 did not meet the
minimum requirements or concrete coverage for concrete exposed to weather as
stated in ACI 318-05, Section 7.7.3 and specimens 4 and 5 did not meet the
minimum requirements of concrete coverage not exposed to weather as well.”
He
then stated the results obtained in procedure B as described in the test report
itself indicate specimens 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 and 9 did not meet the minimum
requirements of acceptable fill it well profiles set forth in AWSD 1.4. He further stated Exhibit B shows the
procedures used, (A and B) at the bottom of the first page. He stated the report was signed by a
professional engineer who went through extensive testing and photographs and
what was indicated on the concrete coverage issue six specimens were checked in
three locations with a cross-cut to determine where the steel was located and
in those 18 locations that were tested or measured only 5 had the allowable
minimum coverage, 13 did not. He then
stated these were specimens of the products purchased by Certified Testing Lab
in the open market. He further stated
the products were not sent to them, picked or handpicked. He stated the report indicated 2 came from
the
Mr.
Dudley stated the letter dated November 5, 2008, signed by Christopher W. Reed,
with CTL, described himself as a certified weld inspector, showed the 8
pictures that followed in the report of six different specimens which revealed
unacceptable welds per the PS standards.
Mr. Dudley continued by stating the proceeding was not an evidentiary
hearing, nor was he asking the Commission to find that there were Building Code
violations. He stated there was no
preparation for hearing testimony, to cross examine witnesses, or to present
experts. He explained the purpose of the
petition was simply to provide the Commission with enough information to
approve an investigation of the allegations.
He stated even though a professional engineer’s report was from a
certified testing facility, it did not have to be considered evidence that
there was a Code violation but simply evidence that these allegations of Code
violations should be investigated.
Eric Adams, Shotts and Bow??,
representing Cast
Mr.
Adams stated in the interest of efficiency he intended to only show a few
slides from the 30 minute presentation of the approximately 60 slides presented
at the POC meeting. He then stated he
believed the most important thing to discuss first was the structure of the
Commission and its committees. He
continued by stating a lot of time was spent on the issue with both Mr. Dudley
and himself speaking back and forth during the POC. He further stated after presenting the case
to the POC two members abstained, one because of his affiliation with
Miami-Dade and the other because of communication issues. He stated there was a unanimous vote of the
non-abstaining members to dismiss the petition for its lack of substantial and
material evidence. He then stated he
would request the appropriate deference by the full body of the plenary session
be afforded to the POC.
Mr.
Adams stated a lot of time was spent on the issue but it did not go before the
Structural TAC. He stated the unique
part of the makeup of both the POC and the TAC have a common member, Commissioner
Kidwell, a professional engineer who also chairs the Structural TAC. He stated Commissioner Kidwell voted with the
two other members that the petition be dismissed. He continued by stating the importance to
discuss what was not in the petition as much as what was contained in the
petition. He stated he was not going to
talk about Code sections, but what Power Steel had ignored, which were concrete
lintels. He then stated Power Steel
ignored 1) in the ACI 318 there was a tolerance of 5/8 coverage to the steel
measured to the steel with a tolerance which allows it to be 3/8, found within
the same code, but not discussed at all within the petition. He stated the POC had heard comments from
both sides on the issue; 2) With respect to a welding related issue it was
believed AWS1.4 applies because the welds were not structural welds. He stated hearing Mr. Dudley discuss the
issue it would seem the welding was structural, bar to bar, but the weld was
7/32 wire to rebar. He further stated
the purpose of the weld was not structural, but to ensure proper placement of
the rebar inside of the concrete. He
continued by stating once the concrete and rebar were made one the weld has no
structural purpose. He stated the
concept of suggesting AWS1.4 of structural welds was applicable to this case simply
was not. He then stated in ACI 318 there
was a commentary to one of the sections which states “When you are welding wire to steel AQS1.4 does not apply”, which
was not mentioned in the chose to ignore the code exception which does not make
the product a code violation.
Mr.
Adams stated even if the Commission decided this was a situation where the
AWS1.4 may apply there was discretion afforded to the engineer. He then stated in the very first section
which discusses the scope which states “There
is discretion afforded to the engineer to deviate from processes.” He
further stated there is a competitor, Power Steel, who makes a steel product
which is a steel lintel and the competitor has attempted to hijack the
Commission and put a black eye on Cast Crete and whomever makes concrete
lentils in the future. He stated his
comments were what he felt in his heart, but he also has empirical evidence
about that particular issue. He
continued by stating less than 3 weeks after filing its petition, Power Steel’s
Florida distributor sent an email to 20 of Cast Crete’s customers . He explained the email included bold
conclusary statement that there were building code violations, attached to the
petition. He stated the distributor did
not wait for two weeks to hear a decision from the Structural TAC or the
Commission before they began boasting about it.
He then stated if the unwarranted attention of the petition to order an
investigation was granted he would imagine an email would go out before he got
home to
Mr.
Adams stated Mr. Dudley had stated not was not about how long Cast Crete had
been on business or what a nice guy Mr. Parrino was, but it was about the
product. He then stated the product was
approved through the certification process Miami Dade as the quality assurance
entity. He further stated a
representative of Miami Dade stood before the POC and talked about the fact
they had inspected and audited the manufacturing processes which was part of
having them as the quality assurance entity.
He stated those manufacturers processes include the very welds the
petitioner was trying to dissect and find certain alleged code violations which
were unsupported by the code. He further
stated the product had gone through extensive destructive testing to the point
of fail. He stated hundreds of lintels
over the years had been destructive tested for load bearing and all of those
test results were reviewed by the quality assurance entity. He concluded by stating it was about the
product. He further stated it was
approved by the most astringent process allowed for by the Commission. He stated there were 50 million of these
products in the marketplace and no failure.
He
concluded by respectfully requesting the Commission give deference to the POCs
decision and no investigation be ordered because it was not warranted. He stated the reason he would make those
requests was because the Florida Administrative Code 9B-72.170, referred to by
Mr. Dudley, states there had to be substantial and material evidence that
supports his petition and supports a violation under 9B-72.160. He reiterated Mr. Dudley has to show a code violation,
not allege portions and ignore other tolerances or exceptions and he has
not. He then stated there was one other
issue raised by Mr. Dudley in the petition.
He stated although it had not been discussed before the Commission, he
felt it needed to be addressed for the purpose of completeness. He continued by stating the issue was a
personal attack on Mr. Parrino, suggesting he was serving as an independent quality
assurance entity because of something that appeared on an internet form. He stated Miami-Dade serves as the quality
assurance entity and visits the plant once a year and audits manufacturing
processes. He stated the quality
assurance program was well founded and authorized by the Florida Administrative
Code in this particular body. He further
stated there was concrete coverage within the tolerance permitted in ACI 318,
which were ignored in Mr. Dudley’s report and by his expert. He stated there were non-structural welds to
which AWS1.4 does not apply and to which the concrete code provides specific
exception because structural steel was not being welded to structural steel,
but a wire to steel weld for the purpose of positioning of rebar. He further stated the welds were not pretty
but do not need to be pretty to ensure the rebar was in the right spot inside
of the lintel. He concluded by stating
there was a lack of substantial and material evidence in this particular
situation and he respectfully requested the Commission give deference to the
POC, which heard more extensive argument on this particular issue, and dismiss the petition for its lack of
substantial and material evidence.
Mr.
Dudley stated he could rebut and close if the Commission preferred or he could
rebut and then Mr. Adams could have an opportunity to speak if there were
additional comments from him before closing.
He stated Mr. Adams made a fine presentation at the POC and he was sorry
he had not gone through the presentation with the Commission because he
believed it would have made the point that there were questions which needed to
be answered. He then stated from the
start he told the Commission this was not a personal attack on Mr.
Parrino. He then stated the reason Mr.
Parrino was shown on the petition was because he was shown on the Product
Approval website under a category called Quality Assurance Representative. He further stated he did not know what that
meant and he had not found any reference to it in the rules. He continued by stating Power Steel, his
client, also had individuals identified under the same role on the website and
he did not know what those individuals’ rights, duties or responsibilities
were. He further stated he brought the
issue because if an investigation was conducted one of the questions he would
like answered for his client would be “Does the person shown as the
representative of the quality assurance agency have any duties and
responsibilities and if those duties and responsibilities should be identified
and whether or not they were met. He
stated he hoped that would not be taken as a personal attack on Mr. Parrino
because that was not the way it was intended.
He further stated he had known Mr. Parrino for a number of years and had
worked with him as a member of the Commission.
He stated he had found him upright and honest to deal with and he has no
reason to question his integrity. He
then stated he just did not know what it meant to have him listed as a quality
assurance representative on the Commission website, along with 2 individuals
from Power Steel.
Mr.
Dudley stated yes Power Steel was a competitor. He stated the Commission rule which
requires an investigation be ordered under these circumstances was there so
product approval deficiencies could be brought to the Commission’s attention,
otherwise there would be no purpose for the rule. He asked how the Commission would ever know
about alleged deficiencies or code violations in a product. He stated there would be two ways to find
out: 1) there would be a failure,
although he had no evidence this product had any evidence or failure or 2) or
competitor would come forward and state they did not believe their competitors’
product lived up to the Code, which was fair game because the Commission would
be dealing with violations of the Building Code it adopted. He asked why they were there. He then stated if the sections were not
important then they should be repealed.
He continued by stating if all that was needed is 50 million products
which have never failed then make tat the basis for product approval and
require no testing, no engineer, no certification method. He stated just state simply if the criteria
were met an approval was deserved.
Mr.
Dudley stated regarding the welding issue there was a lot of material which states
thou shall not weld. He then stated he
was not telling the Commission the Code and the standards the Commission had adopted
as part of the Code have an absolute bar on welding, but it does raise the
question if rebar could be welded. He
then asked does AWS apply. He stated his
client believed it did apply. He then
stated if it could be welded under what conditions. He
stated Mr. Adams stated there was the use of a design professional who can
decide under what circumstances it could be welded. He stated that was fine, but where were those
conditions and where was the engineer, who was Mr. Parrino in this case who signed
the drawings for the NOA, where were the conditions he had set for welding. He
further asked if welding was okay why it wasn’t submitted on the drawings like
the other sections of the code require, required by the Commission.
Mr.
Dudley asked of tolerances were allowed on concrete coverage. He stated he believed they were, but he was
not an architect or an engineer. He
stated if they were allowed how were the tolerances calculated and were they
met in this case. He then stated he had
submitted to the Commission a complete signed report from a test lab that
showed exactly what the measurements were. He further stated he assumed during
the investigation someone could run the calculations and easily determine
whether or not those placements of steel within the concrete meet the allowable
tolerances.
Mr.
Dudley stated Mr. Adams had made reference to the rule. He then stated his client believed there had
been a misrepresentation at the product approval which did not mean it was
intentional or a bad thing. He stated
they also believed there had been a failure to comply with code standards. He further stated either one of those would
be sufficient for revocation. He stated
they were not asking for revocation or suspension, nor to be the judge and jury,
but simply to approve an investigation which would take place under the rule by
the quality assurance entity. He stated
they were very comfortable with Miami Dade in that role.
Mr.
Adams offered comment regarding Mr. Dudley’s remark concerning how an issue
with a product would not be discovered unless there was product failure or unless
a competitor came before the Commission.
He then stated he disagreed that those were the only two ways, there is the
certification process, Miami-Dade serves as the quality assurance entity with
visitation to the plant and auditing the manufacturing process. He further stated this did not happen in a
vacuum without anyone’s knowledge. He
stated Miami-Dade was familiar with the Code sections and was familiar with is
manufacturing processes and had certified this particular product from Cast
Crete with a certificate of competency which was current at the present
time. He then stated Mr. Dudley had a
lot of questions or inquiries about what people should and should not do, but
that was not what the petition had to show.
He continued by stating the petition had to show substantial and
material evidence of the particular violations, not questions or possibilities
that it might happen. He restated
substantial and material evidence were needed, not reports from experts who
ignore tolerances or commentary to the Code, that would suggest the welding of
wiring to rebar was an exception to AWS1.4.
He stated he felt the report was like Swiss cheese with the number of
things it does not address which were applicable to this particular product. He reiterated he would encourage the
Commission to uphold the unanimous decision of the POC and dismiss this
particular petition with no order of an investigation to let this end at this
point.
Mr.
Dudley stated he respected the process of going through the TACs and POCs. He further stated he had seen it work very
well with this Commission. He then
stated he had not always seen the Commission agree with the recommendations of
the TACs or POCs but for the most part it did, because like anybody else, it
relied on the expertise of the committees.
He stated he respected that, but there were 25 members on the Commission
and 3 have voted against an investigation.
He then stated the rest of the Commissioners not seated on the POC were
seeing this petition for the first time since it was not available for review
before the meeting. He thanked the
chairman for allowing time for that time to happen. He stated the most important issue of the day,
the only issue of the day, was Rule 9B-72.170 on investigations states “1a) The Commission shall initiate an
investigation of product non-compliance on the basis of a written complaint
including substantial material evidence.” He then stated the test was simply whether
the product was before the Commission for the very first time and had never
been approved when someone came forward and stated they had problems or questions
regarding the product; wouldn’t the Commission want those questions answered before
approval was given to the product. He
stated it was a “reasonableness” test; i.e., what would a reasonable person
want under these circumstances. He then
stated during the hearing Mr.
Mr.
Adams stated lawyers can be in the same room and not hear the same things. He further stated he had to take exception to
the way Mr. Dudley characterized Mr. Richmond’s comments to the extent that he
wanted to quote what Mr. Richmond did or did not say. He then stated he believed all of Mr.
Richmond’s words and comments were distinctly different.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated Mr. Richmond was in the room and he would call on him for
clarification after public comment was heard.
He then called for public comment.
No public
comment.
Mr.
Richmond offered clarification stating he would need to listen to the audio. He stated he “misspoke” for better or worse
to either side’s benefit or advantage, as it was not his place to tell the
Commission how to decide. He further stated
the Commission had that unique authority unto itself. He then stated clearly the issue before the
Commission was whether the allegations or complaints were significant to
warrant an investigation. He stated the
threshold for that decision was whether the allegations present substantial
material evidence of noncompliance. He
continued by stating it was not a matter of different engineering opinions, but
a matter of what had been alleged and how the code works with what has been
alleged. He then stated at this point
the committee has recommended dismissal or denial as the appropriate
disposition along those same lines if the Commission wanted to do so, it could
move forward and order an investigation.
He clarified that those were the two options for the Commission at this
point in the discussion. He then stated
procedurally, an explicit motion is needed that disposes of the three issues
that were presented or a motion is needed subject to reviewing a final order,
similar to what is done with declaratory statements. Mr. Richmond stated he was uncomfortable
taking a lot of technical editorial license because he was not an expert on
engineering. He stated the three primary
issues contained in the petition were:1) programmatic issue and what was the quality
assurance representative identified on the form, a form which was adopted by
reference in the rule, but with no scoping for it within the text of the rule
within 9B-72; 2) the concrete coverage issue; and 3) the welding issue.
Commissioner
Kidwell stated he was going to make a motion and if a second were entered he
would make additional comments. He then
moved approval of the recommendation of the POC to dismiss the petition. Commissioner Carlton entered a second to the
motion.
Commissioner
Kidwell stated nothing was heard in the plenary session that had not already
been heard in the TAC meeting. He then
stated just about every product has a list of quality assurance
representatives. He further stated it
was not for the Commission to provide education on items especially for
stakeholders in the process. He stated
it was not the Commission’s responsibility to educate on the definition of a
quality assurance representative for a company.
He continued by stating this company has a quality assurance entity in
Miami-Dade, a third party entity, which was not mentioned in the petition. He then stated what was mentioned in the
petition was that Mr. Parrino removed himself as the quality assurance entity
representative and he had done no such thing.
Commissioner Kidwell stated that was fraudulent. He then stated the Commission also did not
need to provide education on issues of engineering. He further stated an engineer reading through
this report with a background in the subject matter would say “You’ve got to be
kidding me.” He continued stating this
was someone who does not understand the issues bringing forth this
petition. He then stated it was also
not necessarily the Commission’s place to provide education on the methods of
the quality assurance entity, be it Miami-Dade.
He concluded by stating this case was one competitor versus another and
with the Commission’s budget constraints, he did not understand why time and
budget were being wasted by looking at the issue because it was a non-issue.
Commissioner
Grippa stated he was fairly new on the board, but he was remiss as to why it
would not be investigated given the fact that one of the Commission’s
evaluators actually opined, although he was not sure how it had occurred. He asked whether counsel could tell if there
was any potential conflict when the Commission contracts with a particular
entity and then they show up with a petition and opine that the technology
being utilized does not meet the Code, the same entity, CTL, shich represents the
Commission on other tests.
Mr.
Richmond stated the status of CTL was as an approved test lab. He further stated he believed they had
applied to the Commission and received approval as do many test labs throughout
the state. He stated it was sort of
point of entry into the Product Approval process. He continued by stating the only person who
could represent the Commission in that process would be Ted Berman, the
contract administrator. He stated the
rest were subject to approval and at risk of losing that approval, therefore
the right to serve as a test lab. He
stated he did not believe an approved test lab in concept could be said to
represent the Commission.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if the Commission had reviewed CTL proposed products and approved
them.
Mr.
Richmond stated CTL would not propose the products, the product manufacturer
would. He then stated he was sure it
had approved some.
Commissioner
Grippa stated he apologized for his vernacular since he was new. He asked if counsel could help him with
that. He asked if they had evaluated products
in the past that one of the manufacturers brought to the Commission.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating he believed they had. He stated there would be no reason otherwise
for them to be a certified test lab.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if the Commission relied on their data.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating what the Commission truly relies on was the
validation of the data, a kind of second layer of review. He then stated yes, in part the Commission
has relied on the test data and the test standards adopted by the Commission in
the Code and their accreditation test lab.
He explained it was a multi-layered system.
Commissioner
Grippa stated now the lab was coming forward and if he was reading the report
correctly, it seems to state there was an issue with the product and how it
meets the Code, the Code the Commission decides. He further stated if the Commission at times
relied on their expertise and their data products were approved, certainly the
Commission would seem to rely on their expertise as individuals if the
Commission were going to disapprove a product.
He continued by stating he believed this puts the Commission in an
interesting situation. He stated there
were a couple of issues raised by the two counsels 1) the Commission was not an
expert; he stated he had no earthly idea in the difference if the weld was good
or not good, which would be what an investigation would determine, and would be
what the Commission was being asked to do. He then stated while he appreciated the
argument for the POC and he believed it to be important to rely on the
expertise of the commissioners, he was surprised a lawyer would suggest to
unlawfully delegate authority as a Commissioner to a committee. He stated he was somewhat amazed that would
be a legal argument. He further stated
he believed counsel would agree with him that the Commissioners sit as
individually appointed Commissioners to make their own decisions. He stated the Commissioners should certainly
rely on the expertise of their colleagues, but he did not think under any
circumstances their authority should be delegated to the committee. He continued by stating the more he reviewed
the three allegations he certainly did not want to determine if they were right
or not right, which would be the purpose of an investigation. He asked counsel if it would be in the
Commission’s authority to investigate the allegations being put forward.
Mr.
Richmond stated he believed it would be in the Commission’s authority. He then stated the real crux was whether the Commission
finds the petition has substantial material evidence. He stated if it does, an investigation would
be ordered.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if an investigation were ordered would it come back to the
Commission.
Mr.
Richmond responded yes.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if at that point in time the Commission could determine whether
the claims were valid or not valid.
Mr.
Richmond stated at that time the Commission would decide whether to proceed and
seek to revoke an approval.
Commissioner
Grippa stated there certainly must be some civil action between the two
entities, as competitors do the competitive back and forth. He stated although
he understood the argument he did not believe it was his role to decide. He asked if that should be handled civilly
and not within the purview of the Commission.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating it was not within what the Commission was
considering.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if he should be considering Power Steel and Cast Crete as to whether
they were arguing or making allegations.
He asked if he should check into that as a Commissioner.
Mr
Richmond responded stating he believed the focus had to be on the petition and
if it warrants an investigation pursuant to the Commission rules.
Commissioner
Grippa stated the Commission had removed products, then asked if the Commission
had ever conducted an investigation.
Mr.
Richmond stated the Commission had not. He
then stated the Commission has had the administrator look into one product, but
never formally conducted an investigation through a certification body. He further stated the only revocations the
Commission had been called upon to issue had been as a result of quality
assurance agencies dropping a certain number of manufacturers, typically
because they had gone out of business.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if an option was to have staff look at the individual product or
if it was that not at the Commission’s discretion.
Mr.
Richmond stated he believed the Commission’s discretion was very broad in this
area. He then stated one thing that was
conceivable was more information could be obtained from a quality assurer in
this case, the particular entity that proceeds.
He stated he believed staff could obtain that voluntarily without
initiating an investigation if the Commission wanted that additional
information.
Commissioner
Grippa asked who was the quality assurer.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating it was Miami-Dade in this case.
Commissioner
Grippa asked if that were what the petitioner had been asking, to have the
quality assurer come back to the Commission.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating what the petitioner was asking for was an
investigation of the allegations, how that would proceed and what Miami Dade
would need would be within their discretion.
Commissioner
Grippa stated he would look forward to more discussion although the motion was
on the table. He further stated he did
not feel comfortable and would be voting against the motion. He then stated he was aware there is a former
Commission member involved. He continued
by stating he did not have any of the material prior to the meeting. He stated he did not feel comfortable that
counsel should be telling the Commission whether it meets the threshold for
investigation or not because clearly that was a legal issue, not a substantive
issue, as they were not engineers. He
concluded by stating he was disturbed by the process.
Chairman
Rodriguez thanked Commissioner Grippa for his comments.
Commissioner
Gregory requested clarification for when products are approved whether they are
approved based on how they were submitted; i.e., not necessarily meeting other
external standards such as ACI 318 which has explicit coverage of concrete. He stated perhaps on this particular lintel
coverage was not a problem. He stated
when product was initially approved were these standards either invoked or
these tolerances taken into consideration or were they presented to meet these
explicitly with no tolerance.
Mr.
Dixon stated the applicable standards referenced in the Code are what product
approvals are based on and that
Commissioner
Gregory asked if it were acceptable to ask Cast Crete a question.
Mr.
Richmond responded stating it was not an appropriate time. He explained it was not an evidentiary
proceeding where testimony would be received.
He stated the Commission needs to look to the petition, the Building
Code and the Commission’s rules for the relevant information before them.
Commissioner
Gregory stated since this was a squabble between competitors he thought both
would want an investigation to clear up any discrepancies or any dispersions on
the inadequacies of anyone’s product.
Commissioner
Schock stated he understood Mr. Adams’ concern since his building department
received the petition from Power Steel a week ago to their inspectors. He then stated now the word is getting around
that there was a problem and inspectors were asking questions. He further stated going forward would just
lead to more of that, in his opinion.
Commissioner
Browdy stated his understanding was the Commission was to determine if there
was sufficient cause to proceed with an investigation. He continued by stating Mr. Dudley raised
some very valid questions that were technical in nature and refer actually to
code questions and code interpretations.
He further stated those questions could have probably been answered or
addressed in a request for a declaratory statement rather than a defamatory
investigation which was what was before the Commission. He then stated Commissioner Schock just
alluded to the fact that the request and movement in that direction was clearly
defamatory to one competitor over another.
He stated it was the petition for an investigation rather than a request
for the normal Commission processes that makes Power Steel’s request suspect
and makes their allegations suspect. He
concluded by stating he would vote to uphold the recommendation of the POC and
support Commissioner Kidwell’s recommendation.
Commissioner
Vann stated in the report from Certified Testing Lab of the comments “allowable
not met”, 31 of 36 comments were allowable not met. He asked if Commissioner Kidwell or anyone else
could explain what that meant.
Commissioner
Kidwell asked Commissioner Vann to clarify where he was looking.
Commissioner
Vann responded stating he was talking about the testing report.
Commissioner
Kidwell asked which page.
Commissioner
Vann responded stating page 207, exhibit B.
Commissioner
Kidwell stated during the committee meeting the parties went back and forth
regarding where that coverage was to be measured from. He stated cast
Commissioner
Vann stated he was still confused. He
explained he did not understand where the testing company says “allowable not
met”.
Commissioner
Kidwell stated the testing company was measuring from the edge of the wire. He explained when they say “allowable not
met,” they are measuring that coverage.
He stated in his reading of this they were reading it from the wire to the
edge of the concrete, not from the structural rebar to the edge of the
concrete. He stated they were using that
as the threshold to determine if the allowable.
He added they did not take into account the tolerance in this report.
Commissioner
Vann stated the Commission was hearing from two very eloquent attorneys who
both presented a great case. He then
stated the questions
he had were was welding
required, yes no he had no idea, no one with authority has said if it was or
was not. He asked if the welding was
required. He also stated he heard
tolerances were allowed, but did not know what they were. He further stated he had unresolved issues
and he wished more POC members were present who voted because a 3-0 POC vote
does not carry the same weight as a unanimous Commission decision.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated there were only five members and two had to be recused, that
was why there was a 3-0 vote. He further
stated Commissioner Stone has asked to weigh in his comments in the discussion. He then asked Commissioner Kidwell if he had
any answers to Commissioner Vann’s questions.
Commissioner
Kidwell stated in looking at the ACI 318 the coverage could be determined and
the coverage requirement was from the structural rebar. He stated the question would need to be
answered by whomever, in his mind it was already answered, from an engineer’s
perspective. He further stated a
layperson would not necessarily know this.
He reiterated he viewed it as the structural rebar to the edge of
concrete which was supposed to be a distance of 5/8 inch with a tolerance to as
close as 3/8 of an inch. He stated he
believed the tolerance to be plus or minus a quarter or plus a quarter minus a
1/8 as determined in ACI 318. He
continued by stating the question raised indirectly by the petitioner
indirectly by the test lab was whether the distance was to be measured from the
outside edge of the 7/32 wire which goes around the outside to the edge of the
concrete or whether it should be measured from the #5 rebar to the edge of the
concrete. He stated in the petition it was measured from the edge of the wire
to the edge of the concrete. He concluded
by stating in his opinion that was incorrect.
Commissioner
Palacios asked what the area of expertise of the other members of the POC who
voted.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated Commissioner Stone was next to speak and then Commissioner Schulte.
Commissioner
Palacios stated he would like to hear from both commissioners and then had
additional comment.
Commissioner
Stone stated he had made the motion he specifically stated it based on the oral
and written testimony submitted he did not believe the question arose to the
levels of justifying an investigation by the Florida Building Commission that a
code violation existed. He then stated
clearly a controversy existed over the interpretation of referenced
standards. He then stated he had not
stated it in the POC but a binding interpretation or a declaratory statement
would have been more appropriate. He
further stated there was no substantial evidence was submitted that proved
Miami Dade was not performing their duties as an evaluation and certification entity. He concluded by stating those factors were
the basis of his motion and his vote.
Commissioner
Schulte stated he was the third vote in the POC and he had never claimed to be
an expert in anything. He then stated he
puts good common sense towards any decision he makes. He further stated he listened to both sides
and he wished the presentation from the defense was available for the plenary
session to view because a lot of the issues brought to light were answered in
the defenses’ presentation. He stated he
felt very comfortable making his decision based on the information presented to
the POC. He further stated he agreed
with Commissioner Kidwell and Commissioner Stone and the comments they had
made. He then stated he had heard
various commissioners stating they had unresolved issues and technical
questions regarding the petition. He
continued by stating he had heard the terms slippery slope and bad
precedent. He stated he believed it
would go that direction if the Commission gave the petition this attention
because other competitors would be bringing products forward, it would not be
the last time if this petition goes forward.
He concluded by stating he had been very comfortable making his decision
based on the information the POC was presented with. He restated he was no concrete expert; he was
a roofing contractor relying on the information being presented to him and
based on that he decided to support the motion that was put in place at the POC
and would do so again.
Commissioner
Palacios asked what the motion on the floor was.
Mr.
Blair responded stating the motion was to deny the investigation per the POC’s
recommendation.
Commissioner
Palacios clarified 2 of the POC members who voted were knowledgeable in that
area and the third member felt confident in his vote after viewing the
presentation at the POC.
Commissioner
Boyer stated he supported he was not a member of the POC, but he sat through it
and watched both sides. He also stated
he wished the presentation would have been brought to the Commission because it
would have answered a lot of questions.
He further stated if he had been a member he would have supported the
motion just as he would support the motion on the floor.
Commissioner
Gregory asked Commissioner Kidwell asked if the stirrup wire was structural or
to just hold the rebar in place.
Commissioner
Kidwell responded stating in the presentation the other party presented at the
POC it was explained the purpose of that wire was so they could be put into the
machine which is the form for the concrete components and not a standard
stirrup generally seen needed to resist sheer forces.
Commissioner
Gregory stated it was his understanding that concrete coverage so that water
intrusion was not allowed so that water can obtain access to the reinforcement
rod that would begin to corrode it, which would then structurally makes the
member unstable. He then asked if the
wire was attached to the rebar and it was out of tolerance for coverage would
it be allowing water intrusion a possibility of degradation of the rebar
Commissioner
Kidwell stated the determination of what the purpose of that bar is, was very
important. He then stated the way the
Code was written it speaks that the measurement was to be taken from a
structural steel to the edge of the concrete.
He further stated it did not refer to tie wire or any other steel
component in that system if that component was not a structural component. He continued by stating the defendant’s
testimony at the POC negated the bar was there for the purpose of putting it
into the machine, not as a structural component and had no purpose beyond the
setting of the concrete. He concluded by
stating that was why the measurement would be taken from the #5 rebar as
opposed to the 7/32 wire.
Vote
to approve the motion to deny the investigation resulted in 19 in favor, 4
opposed (Vann, Grippa, Norkunas and Gregory).
Motion carried.
Mr.
Dudley asked for a motion to either grant or deny that petition because it was
a final agency action.
Mr.
Richmond stated he would take from the general motion to support the POCs
recommendation for a motion to deny an investigation, but he would bring back a
detailed final order at the next Commission meeting the commission’s approval
so all the details could be included.
Mr.
Dudley agreed that was acceptable.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMENTS AND
ISSUES
Steven Bassett
Mr.
Bassett asked what a Commission meeting would be without commentary from him at
the end. He then stated at last
Commission meeting he was graciously given a plaque for his years of service
and it wasn’t until the last person received his plaque that someone had the
chance to say something. He continued by
stating he wanted to come back and say thank you to all of the commissioners he
had served with over the years. He stated he had enjoyed it very much and he
had learned a lot. He then stated he had
one piece of advice to give the new commissioners who are serving now and that
advice was to always vote your convictions.
He further stated he had proof that sometimes it comes back and you end
up winning even though at that point in time you voted against something. He reiterated the commissioners should vote
their convictions and stick with their convictions.
Chairman
Rodriguez thanked Mr. Bassett for his comments and for remaining involved in
the process.
Mr.
Richmond stated he brought discs containing the Sunshine Law and public ethics
guides available from the attorney general’s office and the open government
office. He stated he did not have enough
for everyone, but some commissioners had picked their copy up 3 or 4 meetings
previous.
Commissioner
Gross stated there were a lot of new commissioners and in an effort to get to
know one another he wanted to spend a few minutes introducing himself and his
shareholder. He then stated maybe in the
future each commissioner could take 5 minutes to introduce themselves, as
well. He continued by stating he was a
45 years resident of the state of
Commissioner
Gross stated the brochure regarding his shareholder was what stimulated him to
talk at the meeting. He then stated as
he had previously stated every commissioner represents a certain shareholder
and a certain interest. He further
stated represented the commercial real estate industry, a shareholder who is
the third largest sales tax generator in
Chairman
Rodriguez thanked Commissioner Gross. He
stated the veteran Commissioners would be receiving an email from staff
recommending each Commissioner, if willing, will tell their fellow Commissioners
about themselves. He further stated the
importance of knowing of the stakeholders each commissioner represents i.e.
what each commissioner brings to the table.
He stated it was important to do these introductions during the plenary
session so that all of the information is out in the Sunshine. He concluded by stating the Commission cares
about how the new appointees do and it was incumbent on the veterans since they
had been there longer just to let you know a little bit of what the
commissioners do. He concluded by
stating the email was on its way and as many as possible would be heard each
meeting depending on the agenda. He
stated there were approximately 15 veteran commissioners.
Commissioner
Greiner stated under the topic Florida Building Commission website there were a
number of notices, including an informational notice on pool and spa drain
safety. He then stated the notice refers
directly to section 424.2.2.6 and was put into place in June of 2002. He
then stated the Commission had put into the code various areas with respect to
entrapment and this particular section and in particular ANSI APSP7. He further stated ANSI APSP7 now takes the
specific section and is recommended for use only in accordance with ANSI
APSP7. He then stated so the Commission
does not put out misleading information and unnecessary information the notice
needs to be removed from the website. He further stated he knew the Commission
voted to put it on the website as a recommendation from the TAC and he was not
sure of the correct legal way to remove it.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated Mr. Dixon had noted it and would look into it. He further stated it was important when any
commissioner noticed an inconsistency it should be brought forward for
correction. He stated it was hard to
maintain any website and this one in particular.
Commissioner
Browdy stated in view of financial realities of the moment it would seem
appropriate to schedule a Commission budget committee meeting for the April
Commission meeting in April. He
requested Mr. Blair add that item to the schedule if it was appropriate.
Commissioner
Gregory stated because there were pending issues facing the industry and after
talking with Commissioner Browdy he thought it appropriate to make a suggestion
to revive the Swimming Pool subcommittee which had been under the Plumbing
TAC. He asked Commissioner Vann if it
would approve that. He further stated he
would like to revive the swimming pool subcommittee to hear the issues and ten
make the recommendation to the Commission.
He stated there had been an existing Code problem, a drain problem with
commercial pools and residential pools and it would give the industry the voice
it surely needs.
Chairman
Rodriguez stated with Commissioner Gregory on the Commission as a designate he
believed it would be appropriate.
Commissioner
Gregory stated he would volunteer to chair the subcommittee if he were so
appointed.
Mr.
Blair stated the Energy Workgroup would be having its first meeting at the end
of this plenary session. He encouraged
the commissioners to attend if they were going to be available. He stated the next morning, February 4th
the three rules repeal hearings and a Soffit Workgroup meeting. He then stated it was very important the
commissioners write down the following information for upcoming teleconference
calls:
February
17th @ 10:00a.m. Rule 9B-72.
February
24th @ 10:00a.m. Roofing TAC meeting.
RECESS
11:55
a.m. Adjourn.